|
Post by shumiferades on Oct 10, 2010 16:53:17 GMT
I was surprised to see Lewis so affected at a hairpin due to a lack of third gear. I would have thought he would have used 2nd or even 1st gear for the slowest corner on the track. Bizarrely the missing geared appeared to even affect his steering of the car as he went all the way round the outside instead of a normal racing line.
It would have been good to hear the team radio up to that point but it was completely absent.
Some crazy strategy decisions from McLaren all weekend. They know Hamilton has the five lap penalty yet they give Jenson the tortoise strategy and Hamilton the hair. If McLaren wanted a car at the front of the grid their only option was Jenson yet they give him a tyre choice which makes him slow in qualifying.
Jenson gets a good start which ruins the start of Hamilton’s race. Then they don’t want Jenson passing Hamilton at the end of the GP so they leave him on the hards for too long. In the end Hamilton has a problem with the brand new gear box and so they have to use team orders to get Jenson past him. By then Jenson is 0.5s a lap faster than Alonso but he’s 12s behind and only 6 laps to go, great maths.
I think there was a podium out there for McLaren if they want it but where to busy not racing each other to take it.
|
|
|
Post by jaguarfan on Oct 10, 2010 17:22:06 GMT
its because he was trying to get the engine at the right speed before a double shift. double shifting too quickly would shatter the rest of the gears
|
|
|
Post by shumiferades on Oct 10, 2010 18:29:40 GMT
How would that explain where he positioned the car on the track? Surely Lewis would be through the double down shift in the braking zone and not doing it until the engine and road speed matched would only cost him a bit or engine braking which I think he was mostly making up by braking harder. I think he was braking harder and this is why he had more brake dust than anybody else.
Lewis could have done a better corner and kept Jenson behind him even without 3rd gear couldn't he?
|
|
|
Post by jaguarfan on Oct 10, 2010 18:52:14 GMT
are you really thinking that lewis would have kept jenson behind him??? get real.
when tenths of seconds count for everything in this sport missing an entire gear is a huge problem and to be honest he was lucky to get the car home. lewis yielded cos what was the point of holding jenson up? he may aswell let him through to save something for the team. both of them are pretty much out of the running so he may as well given the driver in the better car a chance of getting something out of it.
|
|
|
Post by tom on Oct 10, 2010 22:09:47 GMT
Button was 2 seconds a lap faster for the few laps before that, there was no way Hamilton was ever going to keep him behind - it's as simple as that.
|
|
|
Post by smithyf1 on Oct 11, 2010 8:22:52 GMT
I think it's safe to say Lewis let Jenson though...
|
|
|
Post by smithyf1 on Oct 11, 2010 8:24:42 GMT
Erm, why??? One of the slowest corners on the circuit and the one where 3rd gear is essential - he was always going to be horribly slow coming out of it!
He could only use 4th-7th gears... using 1st and 2nd gears and continually double shifting would have wrecked the gearbox - remember if they can fix the unit he will have to continue using this gearbox at the next race or get another grid penalty
I think it's safe to say that Lewis let Jenson through...
It was Jenson's decision to run the harder tyres... the team wanted both cars to run the softer tyre, however that said if he had gone and done 1 flying lap on the hards instead of fuelling up for 3/4 he would have qualifyed ahead of Alonso on the grid but the tyres went off too quickly - if they had more practice time this might have been addressed.
The strategy was always to leave Button out longest - if he had pitted earlier he would have been still behind Alonso but would also have similar tyres so he wouldn't have been able to catch him anyway! When it became apparent the soft tyres didn't degrade as expected Button's race was already wrecked so McLaren switched the strategy to keep Button out longer to hold-up the Red Bulls and allow Hamilton to catch up - which was working until the gearbox problem!
Again I think it's fair to say Lewis let Jenson through...
He would have been behind Alonso if he pitted earlier anyway! And he wouldn't have been 0.5s quicker because the difference in tyres would not have been as great.
|
|
|
Post by shumiferades on Oct 12, 2010 20:27:00 GMT
Button was 2 seconds a lap faster for the few laps before that, there was no way Hamilton was ever going to keep him behind - it's as simple as that. Well wither Jenson would have got past Lewis or not isn't clear given the amount of times in the past that Jenson just sits behind Lewis. Drivers have been held up by somebody 2s a lap slower before if the slower car has track position. McLaren may well have used team orders to keep Lewis behind if they a wee bit less worried about Schumacher catching them both. Also they had to try and make a show of their Jenson being slow all weekend bar the last ten laps of the race strategy. If Jenson really thought that was going to work for him then he must be an idiot or feel very unconfident about challenging the other drivers on the normal strategy and so always wants to do something alternative. Perhaps he has bought the Jenson's smooth driving style can make any tyres work in any situation myth. Their usual coble the Non-Lewis driver had completely failed them already and so they did a political like flip flop and instead gave team orders to help Jenson. Shame none of it made its way on to team radio.
|
|
|
Post by jaguarfan on Oct 12, 2010 21:59:52 GMT
there's a difference between team orders and common sense. if a driver is going 2 seconds slower than the other driver per lap, then i think his team mate might just let hinm through to benefit the team. why race your teammate in this situation?? what will you gain from racing when you cant use lower than 4th gear??? you stand no chance of keeping a car behind you!!
Also they were not trying to make jenson seem slow. Jenson chose his tyre stratagy which would have been a brilliant choice if there was a safety car at the end. he was on the same strategy as Kobayashi and he managed to overtake 4 people in the last part of the race. it would have had the same effect for jenson if he'd been closer to the leaders.
|
|
|
Post by shumiferades on Oct 14, 2010 18:41:52 GMT
I just feel it's better for the fans if the drivers race each other. It would have been great to see if Lewis could have tried some tactical stuff to keep Jenson behind him.
We all know Lewis is faster than Jenson and Jenson is a bit scared of race stuff so I think Lewis could have kept him back for at least two laps and not just the first corner Jenson got close.
I'm surprised all the purists from previous races have melted and nobody else missed seeing if Lewis could drive round the sick car a bit. It would have been nice if he at least tried.
|
|
|
Post by shumiferades on Oct 14, 2010 18:47:51 GMT
. Jenson chose his tyre stratagy which would have been a brilliant choice if there was a safety car at the end. Jenson is stupid then. If there was a safety car within the last ten laps of race then there would have been a chance of the race finishing behind it. If the safety car came out before that then Jenson could have been the only person to pit behind it and come out last. Who knows what whacky strategy McLaren would take they could wait untill the lap the SC goes in to pit Jenson because it is in their view optimum. McLaren completely miss managed this GP like they did Monza.
|
|
|
Post by tom on Oct 15, 2010 0:11:11 GMT
Why would Hamilton race Button and risk them both crashing (when it was inevitable that Button would get past) when he can just let him through with no hassle and finish with the points that he got? Racing Button at all would have just been completely illogical.
|
|
|
Post by smithyf1 on Oct 15, 2010 13:25:46 GMT
you are arguing that McLaren were silly with the strategy yet you wanted Lewis to race Jenson? That would have been even stupider.......
|
|
|
Post by Kev Revmoon on Oct 15, 2010 17:34:46 GMT
Stupider like a fox
|
|
|
Post by miss_schumi_jr on Oct 20, 2010 16:23:16 GMT
I dont agree with Jenson being scared of race stuff - Jenson is agressive when he needs to be, my heart last year in Brazil when he qualified badly and came charging past everyone when there was a title at stake could barely cope - it was impressive stuff. Also when he has needed to pass someone say at the start to maximise a strategy he has generally done so. He might not be as flamboyant about it as Lewis, but if it needs doing he isnt afraid of doing it. Lewis just has a go whether he needs to or not - there is the difference!!! Lewis not putting up a fight to Jenson in Japan was a no brainer - it would have achieved very little - Lewis is just lucky it was only Jenson who was so close - if it had been anyone else a scrap would have occurred and instead of losing the one place he could have ended up off the track. I just feel it's better for the fans if the drivers race each other. It would have been great to see if Lewis could have tried some tactical stuff to keep Jenson behind him. I'm surprised all the purists from previous races have melted and nobody else missed seeing if Lewis could drive round the sick car a bit. It would have been nice if he at least tried. shumiferades, were you not in the Ferrari camp when the team orders thing happened in Germany? Would it not have been better for the fans to see them race then - especially as in that circumstance Massa was no slower than Alonso? That would have actually been a proper fight! With Hamiltons sick car, the fight wouldnt have been real, it was nonsensical for Lewis to not put up a fight - and i dont recall a strained message over the radio telling Lewis to do it like Massa either - although i am happy to be corrected i was watching German coverage and wouldnt have known if there was!!! I felt robbed in Germany, i dont after Japan!!
|
|
|
Post by Forza_Nerazzuri32 on Oct 21, 2010 10:00:04 GMT
What happened with Sauber and McLaren at Suzuka was exactly the same as Ferrari at Germany. All three moves are totally fair. When you apply racing rules, you apply it to the action on the piece of bitumen the cars are on. In all three cases, what happened was exactly the same.
|
|
|
Post by smithyf1 on Oct 23, 2010 9:19:12 GMT
What happened with Sauber and McLaren at Suzuka was exactly the same as Ferrari at Germany. Oh please don't tell me that's what you really beleive
|
|
|
Post by shumiferades on Oct 24, 2010 15:06:24 GMT
What happened with Sauber and McLaren at Suzuka was exactly the same as Ferrari at Germany. Oh please don't tell me that's what you really beleive It is clearly true. Team orders are in F1 all teams do them only liars say otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by miss_schumi_jr on Nov 1, 2010 13:54:37 GMT
Of course team orders are in F1, but there are differences in the way they are applied. Sauber and Mclaren at Suzuka are not exactly the same as Germany. In both cases in Suzuka the chasing driver was considerably faster than thier teammate, it would have been stupid and counterproductive to put up a fight that could have ended with both of them retiring when the pass was inevitable. I also dont recall, and have yet to be corrected on the matter, a radio conversation ordering either driver to let the other past - both Lewis and Heidfeld could see the obvious. In Germany, when Massa was not mathematically out of the title himself, there was a clearly strained message telling him to do something he didnt want to do, Thats not working for the good of the team, thats being forced to sacrifice your own result for a teammate, who was at very best a fraction of a second quicker, not a couple of seconds like the two in Suzuka.
Working for the team and team orders are not really the same thing. Even if they both come under the team orders banner. If a driver chooses to let past his teammate because he knows its the right thing to do then its his choice, even if it was a pre race suggestion from the team or a notification that the teammate on on a different strategy etc. The ultimate decision is with the driver. Lewis was under no obligation to let Button though, but it made sense to. Ordering one to move out of the way for the other despite no difference in strategy/car ability/speed against a drivers will is different. So yes team orders are there because working for the team can be defined under team orders, but it isnt the same as Germany, we all know that, it just suits the argument for Ferrari's case. I see no uproar from the F1 world after Mclaren/Sauber doing it, apart from Ferrari fans using it to try and justify Ferrari doing it. After Germany the press was ringing with complaints. Very different.
|
|
|
Post by Kev Revmoon on Nov 1, 2010 21:42:44 GMT
You see, I really think Fernando is the next Schumi in more ways than just he-won-two-titles-with-Flav-and-went-to-Ferrari.
In my view, in the last few years Fernando has done more to undermine his image than he has ever done before. Obviously, Fernando was behind the German GP debacle - there is no other word for it. This whole incident smacked of Pironi's efforts to undermine the incumbent Villeneuve in '82- i.e, to true F1 and Ferrari fans was utterly sickening.
The Crashgate/Singapore '08 incident also detracts from Alonso's legend, in my view. I am quite sure that Fernando was 'Witness X' - i.e someone who knew of the conspiracy, although not a conspirator himself (if Simmonds, Briatore and Piquet were the only other 3 who knew, how could the fourth person be anyone other than the driver of the other car?)
Fernando managed to escape this debacle - there is no other word for it - by telling on others and managed to get away with the win of that race still on his record (which is obviously bollocks).
Whilst I have no love for Lewis Hamilton, Alonso's parking in front of him during Hungarian Qualifying in '07 (if my memory is correct) was deplorable behaviour.
In my view, in much the same way as with Michael Schumacher, at the end of Alonso's career people will look back and say, "Great driver" and then 1.5 seconds later they will say, "Of course, the team orders and cheating detract from his results".
It's a shame because, up until a few years ago, along with everyone else, I was an Alonso fan. When he was battling Michael for the title, we were all cheering him on. Whatever happened to the lad?
|
|